			    TRAVELLER Digest 412

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Missiles
	by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  2) Re: Missles
	by toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
	by "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
  5) Missiles
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Re: Missiles
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  8) Some Missile designs
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  9) Population
	by tnelson@interlog.com (Sean Nelson)
 10) re: missiles
	by myhre@oslonett.no (StarWolf)
 11) RC vs. Regency
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
 12) Re: Population control
	by aswfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 13) Economic Collapse, and Disease
	by aswfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:10:39 -0700
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com
Subject: Re: Missiles
Message-ID: <199509112110.AA14004@mail.crl.com>


Down at lower tech levels, you can make nearly as nasty
long range / high performance missiles using double size
missiles and fusion rocket powerplants.  Make the missiles
13.5 m^3, do the thrust calculations using actual mass etc,
they are still theoretically the same target size class as 
the 7 m^3 missiles (sub-ton).  I have some designs doing better
than 8/40 performance.

The minimum size of the fusion rocket drives the overall size
(min thrust is 100 tonnes, at 9 tonnes/m^3 you get 11.1 m^3
of powerplant...).  Once it's that big, it might as well be
13.5 m^3.  Fortunately, the fusion rocket needs no power plant
and is more fuel effecient than HEPLAR, so you still get very
good performance in the missile.

-george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:38:17 -0700
From: toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Missles
Message-ID: <199509112338.QAA17897@dice.ugcs.caltech.edu>


Re: the missles presented in the last issue - they're pretty neat. It seems
they, along with the missle presented by Muir, are becoming a highly 
dangerous threat to all  non-missle designs.  So, it's time for some 
countermeasures. 
However, since I don't have access to BL or BR yet (a money thing) I 
will merely suggest a few things, and leave the rule-dependent details
to those who have the time or interest to deal with them..

first, a small self-defence laser; Using TL-14 non-grav focussed X-ray
lasers you can produce a system with 800 shots/turn and a 3-hex short
range that masses under about three tons (I'm working from memory so 
forgive any inaccuracies heer, please). with a discharge energy of 30 Mj
it wont cause very much damage - but I would think enough to knock out 
a missle (more on that in a sec). However, the problem is that the laser 
consumes 17 MW. Not good. So I can see several fixes; aa) use a large HPG to 
store up energy when not firing other weapons, or b) use a chemical laser.
This last assumes that you can make a n X-ray Chemical Laser. (Not as  
silly as you might think - there is research going on as we speak involving 
Xenon clusters, I think it is) The chemical laser has an ROF of 1/sc or better, and each cartridge masses 20 kg. so you use a lot of chemicals but it 
will be a useful point-defence system, since no matter how fast the missle is 
it willbe vulnerable to at least one salvo. Unless it is a masked missle I suppose.
Now, a while back someone argued that you have to vaporize a KKM to make it harmless - NOT SO. If you knock out it's guidance system or maneuver system (that large, sensitive PEMS seeker head has _got_ to be sensitive) it won't hit. Sure
it will coast right along at you, but if it's more than a few seconds away when knoocked out, your ship will have moved by the time the KKM gets to you.
Ditto for the DetLaser, not to mention what a few Mj of laser energy will do to the
very accurately machined pointing mchanism in the missle warhead.

more food for thought; what happens to a missle when it encounters a cloud of
sand while travelling at a few km/sec?

Another question; has anyone considered (i.e. made and tested rules for) 
bistatic active sensors (i.e. the emitter in one place, the dtector somewheer else) Just the thing to combine the advantages of active EMS with hiding.

Yet another idea dreamed up during the cold war - creating a  very bright 
pulse of broadband emission, and them looking at the reflections. In otherwords,
set off a special nuke, and look for targets in the flash...

it's sci-fi, in other words, any crayz idea you can think up that _might_ work
has been tested, evaluated, and probably done...
/ben

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 18:55:23 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
Message-ID: <199509112354.AA26364@ns-1.csn.net>

>From: myhre@oslonett.no (StarWolf)
>Subject: Missiles
>
>Here is a few missiles I have created over the weekend, while I have been away.
>
>TL-12 Missile/Semi-Independent
>
>            Pow    Vol    Wgt    Mcr
>WH-500Kt            .4    .4     1.2
>Comm  10L    .15    .028  .056    .056
>PEMS = 1hex  .03    .3    .6      .6
>  Antenna           .05   .05     .05
>EAPLAC      2.0    5.97  5.97     .024
>--------------------------------------
>Totals  Enough :)  7.0   7.08    1.93
>--------------------------------------
>G-rating=10/10
>
>

        I may be missing something here, but where's the guidance
electronics on these designs and the others published recently? Or is that
just ignored under FF&S?
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com     http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/homepage.htm

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date:          Mon, 11 Sep 1995 17:15:11 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
Message-ID: <470DE778D8@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>


> From: toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)

snip

> In summary, Virus woudl cause another great depression, perhaps even 
> a limited nuclear exchange ( NOT total MAD). But we would not plunge us
> into a new Dark Age. Why would we then expect this to be any different 
> with other TL-8 worlds ? 

	I think you're right...I think that the effects of Virus have been 
overstated WRT the damage from the rebellion. This was an Imperium 
wide war, with 'billions dying in nuclear holocausts' according to 
somewhere in the TNE manual.  The economic disruptions are also not 
to be discounted.  The main fronts of the rebellion took place in the 
heart of the Imperium, where the population density, the tech levels 
and (probably) the economic interdependence were highest. You don't 
need to get hit by many nukes if you're on a Hi pop industrial world 
largely dependent on imports for food, raw materials, etc. If your 
markets are closed off or gone due to war, where do you sell your 
goods? Things were crashing hard long before the Virus struck.
 
 
> 
> Now, it thus seems that while the most deaths might well have been caused 
> by Virus killing every last human in high-pop, high-tech, unlivable worlds,
> the horrors of those times and places died with the people that lived there.
> The survivors that form the New Era all came from worlds where Virus may
> have been just one of many curses brought on by the Rebellion. Equal damage
> will quite probably have been done by tha ravages of War - economic collaps,
> loved ones killed, battles and orbital bombardment. As well as perhapse
> other weapons I think would have been used - biological above all.

	Some spectacular losses could be due to Virus (Trin, for example), 
but I think other means of warfare could have easily been as 
injurious.

	Of course you could always combine them...he he he

	COMING SOON to a mailing list near you...the eerie tale of the SLS 
Crichton...a biowarfare research laboratory ship, infected with a 
Doomslayer/Hobbyist Virus...It LIKES to make peculiar and painful 
plagues and sow them as it wends its way through the ruins of the 
Wilds.

	By sheer coincidence I was working on this just yesterday, as an
adventure seed, or rather, an ongoing Virus NPC.  I'm working on a
draft of biowarfare generation tables, and have to look a bit more
into my old microbiology texts, and come up with some stuff on just
exactly what kinds of wepons would /could be used in biological
warfare in the shattered imperium.  Plagues infecting humans,
certainly, but what about tailored fungi that feed on ....saaaay
room temp superconductors (If it was good enough for Larry Niven,
it's good enough for me), or blights that destroy food crops.
Bacteria that eat commonly used starship seal material, other nasty
little things.

	I have looked through my materials at hand and haven't found 
anything regarding diseases in Traveller, certainly nothing like what 
would be used as biowarfare.  Certainly a high tech level society 
could fight off any number of diseases, but one that was already 
struggling economically, where people were already weakened by 
malnutrition or radiation sickness.

	Well, when I get the thing worked up I'll post it.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 17:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Missiles
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9509111642.A27285-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>

Hi all,
	I see that we are all using slightly different variant rules to 
design Heplar missiles, so I'll just throw out my own assumptions for 
purposes of comparison.
	I calculated the MV of a 1/2 ton missile and it comes out to 
.2kl.  I use full internal bracing for max G rating.  For hull plating I 
scale up the armor on the missiles given in the rules for max Gs.  
According to errata posted to this list, missiles with conventional 
thrusters have the following armor values:

(Addition): Under section "C. Space Missiles," add the
 following sentence to the end of subsection "9. Determine Max Gs
 per Turn":

 _Round all fractions down for final G rating._
 (Addition): For both atmospheric and space rockets and
 missiles, the armor value of the missile's airframe skin is
 dependent upon fuel type and tech level.

 Fuel Type    TL 5-6  TL 7  TL 8+
 Liquid Fuel  0.5     1     2
 Solid Fuel   1       2     3

	So if Eaplac can do 12 Gs and be armored at 3, then to be able to
protect against space junk of the same mass, my missiles armor will have
to increase with the square of velocity because KE=.5mv^2.  Thus, AV=
3*(max G/12)^2.  This was originally suggested to me by Merrick, but in
his last post he didn't appear to be using it. Lastly, I compute max Gs 
by dividing thrust by the missiles actual mass, rather than something 
based on displacement.  I think this makes Heplar missiles closest in 
design sequence and trade-offs to conventional missiles, rather than 
small spacecraft. When done this way, Heplar missiles are also a lot less 
scary.  I'll post my latest design after I clean it up, but basically, 
the bracing and hull plating heavies the thing down so much thata 7kl 
missile has performance of about 25/25.  It is comforting to me that a 
design sequence which I consider most realistic also produces missiles 
which are not game-balance destroying.
	Merrick has proposed putting EMM on missiles and having them 
evade on the way to the target, which makes them almost impossible to 
lock.  A question, how do you propose to get the missile to engage 
if it is beyond the 10-hex control range limit?  This also begs the 
question of the invisible missile, which, by BL rules, is essentially 
impossible to get a target lock on.

> like the missiles, but I'm going to give missiles a -2 DM vs passive
>sensors due to exhaust at close range.  Many will still get through.
>
>-Merrick

	I like missiles too :-), but I also have an idea to make them 
easier to lock which I think is a bit more systematic, though it does 
involve more house rules.
	I propose that we create two new range band for sensors, called
Close and Point Blank. Close range would be .5 * Short and lock-ons would
be an Easy task.  Point Blank (PB) would be .25*Short and lock-ons would 
be Easy-1 task, with the -1 only coming into play to counteract positive 
DMs the missile may have due to EMM or evading.  Sensor tasks would look 
like this: 
		_RANGE_				_DIFFICULTY_
		Point Blank	(.25*SR)	Easy -1
		Close		(.5*SR)		Easy
		Short		(SR)		Average
		Medium		(2*SR)		Difficult
		Long		(4*SR)		Formidable
		Extreme		(8*SR)		Impossible

	IMHO, this is more of a logical extension of the existing rules.

P.S. To the author of the recent RICE paper featuring the "World Roof":  
All I can say is "Wow."  That was, IMHO the most evocative RICE paper 
that this list has seen.  Considering the generally high quality of RICE 
papers, this is an impressive accomplishment.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:09:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 411
Message-ID: <9509120109.AA20656@Rt66.com>

>         I may be missing something here, but where's the guidance
> electronics on these designs and the others published recently? Or is that
> just ignored under FF&S?


In the case of a det-laser missile the commo and pointer for the lasing
rods are built into the warhead.  If you do any other type you have to
throw all that glop in (as well as if you wish to have a real sensor).

There was a note from someone about active/passive sensor use.  The
short answer is it's in my sensor rules---but I didn't use nukes as
flashbulbs.  Since there are whiteouts, that'd be a cool idea,
especially for players (I like the idea of a PC getting that lightbulb
over their head :-)

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:22:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Missiles
Message-ID: <9509120122.AA21302@Rt66.com>

> 	Merrick has proposed putting EMM on missiles and having them 
> evade on the way to the target, which makes them almost impossible to 
> lock.  A question, how do you propose to get the missile to engage 
> if it is beyond the 10-hex control range limit?  This also begs the 
> question of the invisible missile, which, by BL rules, is essentially 
> impossible to get a target lock on.

The 10L commo for the missiles is a _short range_, so it's possible out
to 80.
 
And with EMM they are _Impossible_ (the task) to lock, with any
successful evasion they cannot be locked.  If a missile is fired inside
a certain range (depending on the missiles total gturns) it can evade so
as to be unlockable.  The only defense is to break the missile's lock.

> 	I propose that we create two new range band for sensors, called
> Close and Point Blank. Close range would be .5 * Short and lock-ons would
> be an Easy task.  Point Blank (PB) would be .25*Short and lock-ons would 
> be Easy-1 task, with the -1 only coming into play to counteract positive 
> DMs the missile may have due to EMM or evading.  Sensor tasks would look 
> like this: 

This will be added to my sensor rules.  It still won't stop "invisible"
missiles, but it'll limit KKMs.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 21:43:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (traveller)
Subject: Some Missile designs
Message-ID: <9509120343.AA29939@Rt66.com>


Here are some I've been playing with.  The HEPlaR one at 7kl is
basically Muir's design run through my spreadsheet (with 2 different
versions).


Here's a dump of some various missiles from my spreadsheet, the important stuff is at the end of each listing.  1/2 ton missiles are assumed to have a MV of 0.2

I armored them to gs/12*3, and they are fully braced for full gs (Internal 
Structure).  I guess the TL 9 one is old, 'cause it isn't armored or
braced.

I assume that the multi-warhead ones will be spinning, and spread the
nukes out a bit like mines.


TL15 HEPlaR S/FIMissile		30,000km PEMS
					
Tech Level:	15				
Total Volume:	7				
Max gs:		25			
 
			Volume		Mass		Cost	MW
Sensor-SR1 PEMS		0.205		0.405		0.405	0.02
Warhead			0.247		0.247		1.2	
Commo			0		0			
HEPlaR Drive		0.624995	0.624995	0.00625	6.25
Total Fuel		4.4913026	0.3143912			
Powerplant		1.0461667	2.0923333	0.20923	6.277
EMM			0.14		0.07		0.07	0.007
Int. structure		0.1964286	2.9464286	0.0055	
Armor			0.0491071	0.7366071	0.00138	
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals			7		7.436755	1.86236	
 
gturns	143.73088		
 
TL15 S/FIM 500kt detlaser   10L   1P   +4/+3/+4/+3/+1	25g143
Asset=10

========================================================
========================================================
 
TL15 HEPlaR S/FIMissile  		60,000km PEMS
					
Tech Level:	15				
Total Volume:	7				
Max gs:		23				
 
		Volume		Mass		Cost		MW
SR2 PEMS	0.41		0.81		0.81		0.04
Warhead		0.247		0.247		1.2	
Commo		0		0			
HEPlaR Drive	0.5749954	0.5749954	0.00575		5.75
Total Fuel	4.4359451	0.3105162			
Powerplant	0.9661667	1.9323333	0.1932		5.797
EMM		0.14		0.07		0.035		0.007
Int. structure	0.1807143	2.7107143	0.00506	
Armor		0.0451786	0.6776786	
------------------------------------------------------------------		
Totals		7		7.333238	2.24901	
 
gturns	141.95933	
 
TL15 S/FIM 500kt detlaser   10L   2P   +4/+3/+4/+3/+1	23g141		
Asset=10	

========================================================
========================================================
 
TL15 HEPlaR Multi-warhead Bay Missile (S/FIM)
 
Number ofWarheads:	15				
Tech Level:		15				
Total Volume:		14kl				
Max gs:			27
 
		Volume		Mass		Cost		MW
SR1 PEMS	0.41		0.81		0.81		0.04
Warhead		3.705		3.705		1.2	
Commo		0		0			
HEPlaR Drive	1.3499892	1.3499892	0.0135		13.5
Total Fuel	5.7308322	0.4011583			
Powerplant	2.259		4.518		0.4518		13.554
EMM		0.28		0.14		0.07		0.014
Int. Structure	0.2121429	3.1821429	0.00594	
Armor		0.0530357	0.7955357	0.001485	
---------------------------------------------------------
Totals		14		14.90183	2.552725	
 
gturns:	91.699184				
 
TL15 S/FIM 15*500kt detlaser   10L   1P   +4/+3/+4/+3/+1	27g91		Asset=10
 
========================================================
========================================================
 
TL13 500kt detlaser HEPlaR S/FIM 	10L	1P
					
Tech Level:	13				
Total Volume:	7kl				
Max gs:		14		
		
		Volume		Mass		Cost		MW
SR1 PEMS	0.35		0.65		0.65		0.03
Warhead		0.358		0.358		1.2	
Commo		0		0			
HEPlaR Drive	0.3499972	0.3499972	0.0035		3.5
Fuel		4.4855028	0.3139852			
Powerplant	1.179		3.537		0.2358		3.537
EMM		0.14		0.07		0.035		0.007
Int. Structure	0.11		1.65		0.00308	
Armor		0.0275		0.4125		0.00077	
--------------------------------------------------------------
Totals		7		7.341482	2.12815	
 
gturns	143.54528						
 
TL13 S/FIM 500kt detlaser   10L   1P   +4/+3/+4/+3/+1	14g143		
Asset=8
 
========================================================
========================================================
 
TL 9 2*500kt detlaser missile (fusion drive)
 
Warheads:	2				
Max gs:		8.0827675					
Total Volume:	14				
					
		Volume		Mass		Cost		MW
Warhead		1.01		1.01		1.2	
Sensor		0		0		0			
Commo		0		0		0		
EMM		0.28		0.14		0.07		0.014
Fusion Drive	11.11		11.11		0.38885	
Fuel		1.6		0.112			
------------------------------------------------------
Totals		14.0175		12.372			
 
gturns	91.428571				
 
TL9 Controlled 2*500kt detlaser   10L   1P   +4/+3/+4/+3/+1	8g91

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 00:14:20 -0400
From: tnelson@interlog.com (Sean Nelson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Population
Message-ID: <199509120414.AAA28646@gold.interlog.com>



>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>It is my opinion that the history of the Traveller Universe is quite
>impossible unless one assumes that the vast majority of all starfaring
>races practice population control for most of the time. And that includes
>the aslans.
>

A very astute comment, Hans.  I say this because I agree completely.

Population growth in the Traveller universe has always been a problem for
me.  I have resigned myself to believing that birth control in the Trav
future is absolute, and in my own universe citizens on high population
planets have little or no right to choose if and when they want children.  I
do this regardless of law level (with some exceptions), because an 8.45e11
population on a size 4 planet will probably have population controlled by
government already entrenched in the culture.  What one culture sees as a
right of the individual can easily be seen as a privilige in the eyes of a
stranger.

There was a similar conversation on population control in
rec.arts.sf.science.  One calculation figured that assuming 
 (1) a healthy planet could sustain a population of 100 billion people
 (2) each of the 1e11 stars in the galaxy had one healthy planet in orbit
 (3) the population of a planet doubles after 25 years
 (4) immigration from one planet to another is free and instantaneous
(something the people of Mora couldn't do)

The result would be:
>-=> Quoting mike@econym.demon.co.uk to All <=- 
> mi> With the new figures, after 1100 years you still get 8e22 people. They
> mi> live on 8e11 planets around 8e11 stars. That's only 8 galaxies full.
> mi> There's still enough room in the universe for another 700 years of
> mi> expansion.

There is obviously something going on in the Traveller history, not
mentioned in the rules, that is preventing this population explosion.  I
think precise, inexpensive birth control explains the "dark matter" of the
GDW universe.

-scn


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 06:24:24 +0200
From: myhre@oslonett.no (StarWolf)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: missiles
Message-ID: <199509120424.GAA15795@hasle.oslonett.no>

Merrick wrote:

>Why is the HEPlaR so big?  Shouldn't be .35714% of volume per g like
>all other HEPlaRs?  I get vol=.125kl for a 5g HEPlaR on a 1/2 ton ship.
>The missile needs 0.25MW/g, 1.25MW for 5gs, so .125kl for drive.
The missile displaces .5 ton, Thus to conform to the 15*ton rule it can't 
weight more than 7.5tons. The original drive was spec'ed to 12G. As 3MW 
gives 60 tons of trust, and 60 divided on 12.4 gives 4.838, or rounded to 5.


--------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
Roger Myhre   | myhre@oslonett.no | http://www.oslonett.no/home/myhre/
HIWGmember 142| Some people have one of those days, I got one of 
              | those lifes.
--------------+-------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:34:44 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RC vs. Regency
Message-ID: <79@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

I've just caught up on about a week or two's postings, and this debate over the 
conflict between the RC and the Regency seems interesting.

We know only a few things about what has/will happen when the two meet. The 
Regency will not back down on Virus, but in the RC many citizens are likely to 
become very good friends with some of the sandman strains - imagine having a 
friend who can run a starship singlehanded better than the ship's computer, and 
who really wants to impress you. But the Regency, while very good at keeping 
Virus out, has next to zilch experience in dealing with entrenched infections. 
Virus sympathisers in the Coalition could take shiploads of virus eggs 
throughout the imperium. The RQS might find it harder to deal with this than to 
keep a border shut.

Still, from the quotes I've seen , I don't believe that the Coalition and the 
Regency actually end up going to war. I don't want that to happen, as 
1/I like the Regency
2/It wouldn't be much of a confrontation
3/I've come to like the Reformation Coalition (although the TML in general 
mightn't agree with me there)

The RC and the Regency will face a difficult task in rebuilding the Imperium. 
There really is nothing that either could do if they meet with a large number of 
pocket empires who want their independence and will fight for it. You could 
blast them into the ground, but that's not really the best way to rebuild an 
empire.

Perhaps this confrontation could be avoided if a third player was brought into 
the picture......

Thoughts
1/We are told that tens of thousands of vampire ships are heading coreward.
2/It would be reasonable to assume that they have been doing this for a decade 
at least.
3/There isn't likely to be anything much to do once they get to Capital, just 
check the ruins and then leave again.
4/Given the above, shouldn't a large number of vampire ships be leaving Core as 
well. Where have they gone?

It seems to me that something is definitely up in the Black Curtain, something 
which could be more than just a large number of vampire fleets infighting.
What if a dominant strain of Virus is cooperating with the human and alien 
citizens in the Black sphere, not some peacemaker, but a far more aggressive 
mutation, a sophisticated Empire maker. Even while the RC and Coalition are 
arguing on principles, a common enemy is building strength elsewhere. Regency 
vs. Coalition is a foregone result, but there was so much military hardware in 
the old Imperium, that even if most of it was destroyed, there would still be 
enough remaining or repairable to outnumber the ships available to the Regency 
and Coalition, especially if a very strong strain of virus could remobilise 
virus infected devices usefully.
Even in 1210 or so, the massive virus empire (probably a misnomer, the virus 
would merely be an equal citizen with the organic sentients working with it, 
this kind of attitude would let it work effectively with organics, who are at 
least useful) would have spies throughout the former Imperium, supplied with 
virus free ships where necessary (imagine players pursuing a scout ship, which 
then suddenly is joined by a very big relic battleship jumping in to protect the 
smaller ship, before leaving again, and think of the players trying to convince 
the authorities of their sighting, and that there is 'something out there') 
The sudden emergence of this empire could let the Regency and Coalition forget 
their differences and band together for protection.

I really like the possibility for adventure this gives, something like 
Babylon 5, but without the mystic bits.

Still, it'll never be Traveller canon, but I wish GDW would spill the beans on 
the Black Curtain. After all, while you don't have to include Grandfather in 
your campaign if you don't want to, your players shouldn't have too much trouble 
finding the Black Curtain (Its trailing of the Marches or Coreward of the 
Coalition in case you missed it ;-). 
Still, given that information on this should be in one of the next couple of 
books after the Regency Sourcebook, we can at least expect to see it by about 
the year 2000 or thereabouts ;-)

-- 
Brendan 


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 02:42:09 -0800
From: aswfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Population control
Message-ID: <v01530500ac7b05266c0b@[137.229.100.54]>

>It is my opinion that the history of the Traveller Universe is quite
>impossible unless one assumes that the vast majority of all starfaring
>races practice population control for most of the time. And that includes
>the aslans.
>
>Consider a moderate sized new colony of 10.000. Give it an average population
>increase of 3% per annum (I admit I don't remember just where I got that
>figure. I used it for years in my fantasy Great Game; I'm sure I based it
>on something. Anyway, it dosen't seem excessively high for unlimited
>population growth. Indeed, humans would be capable of a lot more than
>that, but we have to account for the odd plague, famine and war too.) Well,
>you'd reach 115 _billion_ people in just 550 years. The Rule of Man had that
>long. The Imperium had twice that (and once more if you count the Sylean
>Federation before it). The First Imperium expanded for 3-4000 years and then
>stayed within the same borders for 10 times that. They most certainly must
>have practiced population control. The Aslans had 1800 years of relatively
>uncontested expansion during the Long Night. If they had expanded completely
>uncontrolled for that long they would be covering Charted Space like a coat
>of paint by now.
>
>Mind you, on some planets, at some times, population expansion must have
>been less restricted. The same economic factors that makes exporting people
>in large numbers such an economic headache will, of course, restrict
>_importing_ people equally. So all the people on high-population worlds must
>be mostly "home-grown". But this must be a phase that new colonies go through
>and abandon. Consider Mora. We are told that Mora was settled by a "large-
>scale" effort. Just how large "large-scale" is is not defined, but let's
>assume that the original colony was a million strong. Given an average
>population increase of 3% per annum they'd reach 10 billion in just over
>300 years. If they kept that up unchecked until 1110 they'd reach 130
>quintillion (that's 130,000,000,000,000,000,000) (Gee, exponential growth
>can be a frightening thing...)
>
>Btw. I once calculated (based on TCS budgets) that Aslans could afford to
>outfit 1.8% of each generation (that's 1,8% per 30 years, not per year) as
>_ihatei_. Not a significant population relief.
>

Hans, Your 3% per anum  is the higher end of industrialized doubling times.
Average, and that used in the TNE rules (Mk1, Mod 1, pp191) is 0.5 to 2%,
giving a doubling time of 35 to 120 years. Considering that most
populations stabilize anyway at certain plateaus, and available food limits
both the number of children who live to adulthood and the number of adults
who survive to breed viably (children who are not part of the infant
mortality rate), as the population ioncreases, so also the doubling time
increases.

Also, keep in mind that as population increases, so also does internal
violence.

Supporting data: according to a 1992 sociology text, the lowest known
doubling time was 17 years, in ethiopia. the lowest were in Eroupe, some of
which had halving times.

And as for the Aslan, keep in mind that their population is kept in check
by the limited number of breeding males, constant wars
(internal/inter-clan), and 15-25% of non-breeding females. The Vargr also
have the same basic checks, but don't have the male-female ration problems.
All totaled, these factors would severely cut down the population growth
rate (increase doubling times).

Who needs population control measures? Nature builds them in.

BTW: with a doubling time of 50 years (about 1.4% per anum), that 10,000
person colony will grow, assuming no change in growth rate, over 550 years
to a mere 20,480,000 persons. Earth, in CE 1995, is over 5 Billion, with a
mean doubling time (supposedly) of 40-60 years.

3% per anum is a doubling time of 25 years.
5% per anum is 15 years.

pop over time formula:

        Pf= Ps * 2^(Tt/Td)
Where:
        Pf = Final Population           Tt = Total time allowed
        Ps = Starting Population        Td = Doubling Time
and no reduction in doubling time occurs during population growth through
the time allotted.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ASWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       HTTP://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/home.html

"History is the story of the life of societies; geography is the study of
what they evolved in."



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 02:42:18 -0800
From: aswfh@acad2.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Economic Collapse, and Disease
Message-ID: <v01530501ac7b0d194a36@[137.229.100.54]>

As for the Economic collapse: based upon the Long Night, and the material
in Hard Times and Survival Margin, I think that crash of the economy
occured because merchants failed to see the profit in trading with the
worlds at the borders of the safe zones, and as they pulled back, the
defense forces would likewise do so (Overall, not in specific) as the
defensive roll of any military is to protect trade and resources. Since
this moves the safe area border back, the merchants pull back farther,
their former clients turn to piracy to retain any off-world imports on a
steady basis, and the cycle continues.

 As the larger populations get cut off from trade, they start going into
local recessions, failing to get needed off world good, and may collapse if
above the Max Sustainable Population. When such a world loses it's off
world imports, there will either be strong leadership making rough choices
(Who lives and who dies), racial purges (intra- or inter- species), or war
over who gets what.

Just look at germany between the two world wars to see what I mean (they
were being forced to pay reparitions that meant reducing the standard of
living below the wartime levels of WWI).

As for Disease Rules: Travellers Digest #20, pp 44-48,(Terry McInnes, DGP
1990) has some good, simple rules for MT. The Task Difficulties can be used
as is.
Radiation Sickness and related issues were in TD #15, and Mental Illnes in #17.

They would need very little work to be crossed over. (Hint Hint Wink
Wink... GDW, are you out there???)

Also, you can use the Twighlight:2000 radiation rules for a good, but
brief, simple system for radiation and illness, no conversions needed.


-Wil

William F. Hostman

EMail:          ASWFH@Orion.Alaska.EDU
HomePage:       HTTP://orion.alaska.edu/~aswfh/home.html

"History is the story of the life of societies; geography is the study of
what they evolved in."



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 412
***************************
